AMY GALLO: You’re listening to Girls at Work from Harvard Enterprise Overview. I’m Amy Gallo.
Suppose again to your first job out of school. Mine was working as a program supervisor for a small nonprofit. And whereas I used to be extremely organized and good at shifting work ahead, a talent I’d honed as an undergrad in these torturous group tasks, I used to be additionally overconfident and unaware of the extra nuanced abilities I wanted, like write an electronic mail that may get individuals to do what I needed them to or relay a call the manager director had made to my friends. I didn’t have the interpersonal abilities that undoubtedly would’ve made me a lot happier and simpler in that job.
Why didn’t I be taught in school that getting the suggestions I wanted, constructing belief, setting boundaries are all half and parcel of success and development? Why weren’t these abilities within the curriculum?
With academia’s fixation on profession readiness, why are schools nonetheless graduating college students who employers say fall in need of their expectations in areas like capacity to speak and suppose critically? That’s what the Affiliation of American Schools and Universities discovered when it surveyed executives and hiring managers in 2023. And when NACE, the Nationwide Affiliation of Schools and Employers, surveyed HR administrators and managers in 2024, they’d comparable findings.
If professors and profession counselors and skilled professionals such as you and me don’t clue college students into the realities of labor, we threat dropping future leaders earlier than they even get began. Which is why when the organizers of SXSW EDU, the innovation convention targeted on the training sector, invited Girls at Work to host a session, we determined to speak about handle these gaps.
Whether or not you’re instructing school college students, parenting one, or managing somebody who simply landed their first job, I hope this episode provides you a clearer image of what early-career girls are up in opposition to in these first few make or break years of labor and how one can assist. In any case, all of us have a strong function to play in making these years extra navigable, equitable, and empowering for younger girls.
This dialog you’re about to listen to was taped dwell in Austin at SXSW EDU.
Hello, y’all. How’s everybody doing? Good. So, I’m excited to be joined by two visitors who suppose rather a lot about this part of younger girls’s lives and what they should thrive after they’ve entered their careers. My two visitors are each Texas-based. Go, Texas.
Neda Norouzi is an structure professor on the College of Texas at San Antonio, and he or she helped create a student-led group in structure, the division that she is a part of.
Aimee Laun is the Director of the Texas Lady’s College Profession Connection Middle, and once more, thinks rather a lot about, how will we put together girls for at this time’s workforce.
I’m going to begin with Neda and Aimee. And I wish to ask, what’s a talent that you simply had been stunned if you first began within the workforce that you simply didn’t have? Nobody instructed you was obligatory, however turned vital instantly. Neda, we will begin with you.
NEDA NOROUZI: I realized rather a lot, however I believe my most important one … So, I grew up in Iran. And being a girl in Iran, it was an enormous deal to be the nice woman, being soft-spoken and quiet. So, being within the workforce in America, talking confidently in conferences was one thing that took me some time to get a deal with of. And even talking generally in conferences, particularly with consumer conferences.
Now, I used to be fortunate that I had a supervisor who was a beautiful lady and infrequently gave me the ground and would say, “Effectively, Neda, you instructed me about your thought. Why don’t you share it with Mr. or Mrs. So And So?” However even then, I nonetheless bear in mind my voice would all the time shake, and I all the time doubted myself that I’m saying one thing flawed or I’m saying one thing that’s not right and I may not simply know sufficient. And so I believe talking confidently was the principle one.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. However I assume you spoke up in courses throughout college. What was the distinction?
NEDA NOROUZI: Truly, I didn’t. I used to be the scholar who would all the time sit within the entrance, take notes, and I might by no means say something except I used to be requested.
AMY GALLO: And no professor stated, “You’re going to want to be taught to talk up.”
NEDA NOROUZI: None in undergrad, no.
AMY GALLO: Proper.
NEDA NOROUZI: I had a professor who instructed me to take a category within the speech division. And that helped rather a lot, academically and professionally.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Aimee, how about you? What’s a talent you had been stunned to be taught was obligatory if you acquired into the workforce?
AIMEE LAUN: That is going to sound so easy, however essentially the most spectacular factor in my first job that I realized about was from my boss, Lisa Ortiz. She was very productive. She was beginning a enterprise, and I went to work for her. And he or she used a planner known as the Quo Vadis Planner, and it was stunning. It had a leather-based cowl on it. And inside, it had a calendar for taking notes and dates. And I noticed her utilizing that, after which she would ask me, she says, “Now we have some deliveries coming in.” It was a retail store. “These dates and instances.” And I used to be making an attempt to maintain all that in my head. And I assumed again to her, like, Oh, I want to write down this down. And nobody ever instructed me, when your boss is talking, it’s worthwhile to take notes.
And so I went all the way down to, in San Antonio, the Nancy Harkins Stationery retailer, and I purchased me a Quo Vadis planner. I nonetheless have that behavior at this time. Planner, and I’ve acquired my calendar and my agenda and my notes and indexes. And so I believe girls observe different girls. That’s how we be taught. And so her instructing me that finest follow, simply by way of my commentary of her, has been one thing that’s helped me to achieve success in my profession.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. For me, it was actually negotiation. And I don’t imply negotiating a wage, simply that just about each dialog in work was a negotiation, proper? How are we going to maneuver forward with this undertaking? Are you going to hearken to my thought or their thought? What’s the funds going to be? And nobody taught me navigate the facility dynamics after they weren’t as crystal clear as student-professor. And I believe that was a factor that was actually shocking to me, is how a lot I wanted these negotiation abilities on daily basis, all day.
Aimee and Neda, what’s a query that you simply’ve gotten from a present scholar or a former scholar that has indicated to you that they’re by no means ready for the workforce? Or that maybe they’re really extra ready than you anticipated? Aimee, we will begin with you.
AIMEE LAUN: It’s not the questions they’re asking, nevertheless it’s the questions they’re not asking as a result of they don’t know what to ask. So, when instructing negotiation abilities, which is one factor we educate within the profession heart, they don’t know that they will advocate for themselves, that they will ask for a distinct workplace, a parking spot, the advantages, an additional time without work. They only don’t know the inquiries to ask. So supporting girls who’re youthful, the junior girls coming in, popping out of school, the extra we will advocate for them, be the one which asks the questions.
AMY GALLO: Now, you each are in academia now, and I assume most individuals listed below are comparable organizations, however you each have company expertise as properly. How does that affect the best way you speak to college students about what they have to be ready for?
NEDA NOROUZI: So, I labored in an architectural agency proper after I acquired my grasp’s diploma. And I believe I all the time inform my college students, college is sort of this la-la land that we get to do what we wish and never essentially should cope with quite a lot of the challenges that are available in the actual world, particularly in relation to talking to purchasers, proper?
Structure college students, after they design a undertaking, they spend 17 weeks. And so they’re, as they prefer to say, “I’m married to it,” proper? So, I might all the time inform them that, it’s not about you, however it’s in regards to the consumer. So, if you’re presenting your undertaking, as a substitute of claiming, “I like this,” simply say, “That is how this constructing is designed to …” Proper? And that may make it easier to follow the way you converse to your purchasers. As a result of in the event you’re telling your consumer, “This undertaking was designed for you, and that is the way it’s going to answer your wants,” there’s a a lot larger likelihood that they’d rent you than the subsequent individual.
I nonetheless attempt to keep very energetic in the actual world and do consulting work and design work, so then I do know what it’s that college students want after they get on the market.
AMY GALLO: Aimee, how about you?
AIMEE LAUN: So, I grew up in a small city in West Texas. My dad was a preacher, and my mother was a trainer. I assumed these had been the one two jobs. And so I realized rather a lot, and I realized it the arduous means, simply by trial and error. I didn’t have quite a lot of mentors on the time.
So, I labored for Philip Morris Worldwide. And I bear in mind my interview for that job. They despatched me, a small city, West Texas woman, to New York Metropolis. I’d by no means been in a metropolis bigger than Dallas. So right here I’m going to … On a aircraft for the primary time, seven interviews within the day, after which we went to dinner that night. Every little thing was a studying expertise by way of that interview. Even after we went to dinner in New York Metropolis at 10:00 PM, I used to be like, Wait. Actually? The restaurant was so good. Half of the issues on the menu had been in French. And so I did the, Let me see what Val, the one person who I knew there, what’s she ordering? And I simply stated, “I’ll have what she’s having.”
I believe having Val there as a mentor and to say, Okay. If she’s doing this, I can do that too, actually did assist me. And I attempt to educate that to our college students: discover a mentor, discover a sponsor, discover somebody you simply suppose appears actually cool within the workplace and also you wish to be like them. And you may be taught rather a lot simply from commentary and from being of their presence. You’ve gotten these individuals in your life the place you’re feeling like, I acquired a lot power simply out of going to Starbucks and getting espresso with this one individual than I did studying in a coaching class. So, that’s one factor I took from the company world, that we will actually educate one another to achieve success in these environments.
And I additionally realized rather a lot about workplace politics, that titles imply one thing. And whether or not you prefer it or not, it does have energy. And you may be well mannered, poised, {and professional}, and nonetheless highly effective. And I believe that’s what working in company America taught me essentially the most.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. We did an episode about sponsorship and the way it differs from mentorship and get a sponsor. And it’s the episode I hear most frequently girls inform me, “I despatched it to my daughter” or “I despatched it to my niece.” As a result of I believe that can also be a talent. Persons are not warned that you simply don’t simply go in and your work speaks for your self. You want allies. You want people who find themselves going to advocate for you within the group.
Let’s get into among the abilities. So, NACE outlines these competencies that they are saying are important for profession readiness. So profession and self-development, communication, vital considering, fairness and inclusion, management, professionalism, teamwork, and know-how.
Fascinated by making an attempt to equip college students with all of these abilities is overwhelming. And but, we additionally know that listing isn’t full. After we take into consideration what we’ve realized on the podcast and what we’ve realized from our visitors and our listeners, there’s a lot extra. Negotiation, advocacy, steadiness distant work, boundaries, and cope with emotional labor, cope with bias that will get despatched your means, and the entire issues we’ve already talked about.
So, I wish to get into what you’re doing to equip college students with a few of these issues that aren’t on the NACE listing. Let’s begin with negotiation. Aimee, particularly in your profession heart, how are you desirous about negotiation abilities and giving girls the talents they want, not simply to barter a wage, however to barter all facets of a job?
AIMEE LAUN: You’re proper. It’s not all the time nearly cash. It’s about what else is on the market. And so we, at Texas Lady’s College, we’re very passionate in regards to the pay hole, the gender pay hole. And so we educate college students about that. For each $1 a person earns, a girl earns 84 cents. The one means that we’re going to alter that’s by way of advocating for one another and thru instructing one another. And I see there’s some males within the room—to not choose on you, however we’d like you to advocate for us within the office.
AMY GALLO: And we additionally want you to inform us what you earn as a result of we’re not even typically conscious of the pay hole. And so it’s actually useful. The extra info we’ve got, particularly from males, the extra we will perceive whether or not we have to do some advocacy, we have to do some negotiation.
AIMEE LAUN: Sure. And so I believe as girls, we’re taught to be respectful of our elders and quiet. And we’re made a job supply and we go into freeze mode, and we aren’t considering of the subsequent step or what we have to be asking for. And so we try to educate girls emotional intelligence and balancing your feelings in discussions like that that may be emotional, however essential. And so getting girls to advocate for themselves is the principle factor in wage negotiations, and in addition in different life negotiations.
NEDA NOROUZI: The scholar group, the Girls in Structure group, negotiation is likely one of the subjects we’ve had. Plenty of college students who get a job, and as a scholar or as a current graduate, if you get a proposal, you’re simply pleased. And college students typically inform me, “Are you positive?” And I instructed this to at least one scholar, “For those who’re not doing it for you, do it for all the ladies who would come after you.” And he or she did. She acquired every part she requested for.
After which afterward, a scholar who had by no means had a category with me got here to me at school and stated, “You don’t know me, however I spoke to this one that you had instructed to ask for extra for all the ladies that come after her. So she instructed me this, and I did too. So, I needed to say thanks as a result of I acquired the next wage, and I acquired time to spend with my mother, who’s not doing rather well.”
So yeah, simply realizing that you may ask. And if they are saying no, they are saying no, you don’t lose something, proper? However that’s one thing that I didn’t know and makes me actually pleased after I hear that college students are doing it now.
AMY GALLO: Let’s discuss one other talent, coping with bias and sexism. I’m so on the fence about deal with this query for the younger individuals in my life, notably my 18-year-old daughter. On the one hand, I wish to inform her the way it’s going to be. On the opposite, I don’t wish to scare her. And I’m curious the way you deal with this with the scholars that you simply mentor and lead? Aimee?
AIMEE LAUN: It’s not a subject that we put on the forefront, however when college students ask us these questions, we’re capable of have sincere discussions with them. However we try to return to, what does the analysis say, and base it on factual proof and discuss, Oh, listed below are the info about girls and males and the office. And even age within the office and what affect it might have on their future profession. I believe it’s at the back of their minds however not spoken about rather a lot.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I’m glad you introduced up age too as a result of that’s … After we say ageism, I believe we frequently take into consideration discrimination in opposition to people who find themselves older. However college students, one of many greatest issues they face, one of many greatest isms or biases typically is ageism. And compounded when that intersects with sexism will be fairly demoralizing, dismissive, undermining. So, I’m glad you introduced that up. Neda, do these conversations come up in your group as properly?
NEDA NOROUZI: They do. College students had been saying, “If you’re a teenager who’s simply beginning your profession at an architectural agency, you’re anticipated to know all of the know-how and the way all the pc applications work. After which you might be used for that.” So, what I inform my college students is, “Okay. So you might have recognized the issue. Let’s now discover a resolution for it.” So, we speak by way of it after which we discover articles to learn collectively and see what’s one of the best ways to cope with the particular state of affairs that they’re in, which regularly then begins a dialog in a much bigger image. After which we deliver it again to our basic assembly and discuss it collectively.
AMY GALLO: After I take into consideration 22-year-old me who entered the workforce, the concept of discovering options for issues was not a talent I had. I used to be actually good at declaring issues I assumed different individuals ought to resolve, however was not good at determining. So, I believe desirous about how do you plan not simply that is one thing flawed, but in addition how do you really suggest what will be executed.
Equally, I used to be not superb at selecting my battles. I felt like every part was price burning down the group for, which I needed to be taught in a short time was not the case. I wish to pivot a bit bit. It wouldn’t be a dialog at SXSW if we didn’t discuss know-how and AI. Aimee, how is your heart utilizing know-how to both perceive the talents that girls want as they enter the workforce or to organize them?
AIMEE LAUN: Let me come again to AI. I wish to say one thing about that final subject.
AMY GALLO: Oh, yeah.
AIMEE LAUN: One factor we do educate … And also you’ve made a extremely good level of me at 22, and the way did I deal with this? We educate the Circle of Affect and Circle of Concern as a result of we’re going to be involved about quite a lot of issues within the office. What we’ve got to give attention to is what can we affect. And getting college students to suppose to that stage of, what do I’ve management over, and let’s give attention to that.
However the profession heart at Texas Lady’s College, we use AI quite a bit. And we’re instructing college students write prompts and edit what the AI generates for you. And if it’s in your resume, are you going to have the ability to discuss it in an interview? Or is that this one thing that simply sounded good?
And we’re additionally beginning to use some knowledge mining instruments to see, the place are college students going, not only for their first vacation spot, which has been a standard metric in profession facilities throughout for a very long time. First vacation spot, the place are they going? After which we finish. So, what we’re making an attempt to do now’s, the place are they at in 5 years? And the way did they get there? The place are they in 10 years? And the way did they get there? And with knowledge mining sources like Bureau of Labor Statistics and LinkedIn profiles and issues like that, we will begin to mine and comply with our college students a bit bit additional, even out to 10 years, and the way did they get there? After which use that for teaching college students as a result of college students suppose they’re going to be the CEO in three weeks. And it’s like we acquired to point out them this development, that it’s a profession development over time that’s going to make you profitable and proceed to be challenged and pleased in your work. In order that’s been actually significant.
AMY GALLO: That’s nice. Neda, are you speaking about AI along with your college students?
NEDA NOROUZI: 100%. So in my courses, since AI turned a factor, I launched it to my college students. I attempt to be taught it as a lot as I can myself, consistently, day by day foundation, proper? After which what I might do often for an project is I say, “That is your subject. Have ChatGPT write it. Carry it to class.” After which I might have one-on-one periods with them and have them analyze it with me. “So, do you agree with what it’s written?” And that often I see these gentle bulbs going that that’s not what I wish to say.
So then I deliver it to vital considering. I inform them to make use of it, whether or not it’s for fast renderings and ideation or giving it your summary and having the proper title to your undertaking, however don’t let it suppose for you. In order that’s typically been my method to it as a result of college students are going to make use of it. Regardless if I enable it or not, they’re going to do it. So my hope is that I might have the ability to information them by way of the method of utilizing it to assist them succeed.
AMY GALLO: So we wish to hear from you all. You probably have any questions, you’ll be able to line up right here. Hello.
Viewers Member: Hiya. Thanks, girls. This was unbelievable. I additionally introduced my daughter, being 24 and a current school graduate. So, I might love so that you can give each my daughter and all people in your podcast recommendation on the way you steadiness coming throughout being pushy and aggressive to get that first job since you’re additionally up in opposition to males that it’s nearly anticipated from.
NEDA NOROUZI: Yeah. Effectively-
AMY GALLO: Aimee, do you … Oh, go. Neda, you-
NEDA NOROUZI: Sorry. I simply acquired actually excited as a result of I utilized for my dream job proper out of faculty. And I despatched the applying in considering, They’re by no means going to name me. Inside two hours, I acquired an electronic mail from the principal of the agency. He occurred to be on the town and had gotten the e-mail and thought, Effectively, I don’t have any lunch plans. Let’s simply meet with this younger woman. So I met with him. I ended up not working there. They didn’t rent me. However what he did inform me was communicate. After which I stated, “Certain. However how typically can I communicate?” He stated, “Contact us as a lot as you need till we let you know to not.” As a result of what he instructed me was that, “We get quite a lot of emails. It’s not private. It’s not about you. It’s nearly we don’t have time. However in the event you hold sending emails, in the event you present up and say, ‘Hello. Sure, I utilized right here, and I used to be simply questioning if I might speak to so-and-so,’ then they’d know that you simply’re really extra than perhaps the subsequent individual.”
AIMEE LAUN: And Neda made a extremely good level. It’s human to human connection. For those who’re not networking, you’re not working. That’s what we inform our college students. You’ve acquired to get on the market. You’ve acquired to make eye contact, shake fingers, rise up tall, be a presence. For those who’re sitting behind a Zoom display ready for somebody to electronic mail you, it’s by no means going to occur. So in-person, human to human, we can’t neglect that. For those who’re going to an affiliation assembly or a convention or a networking occasion, seize a scholar. Take them with you. For those who don’t know what scholar to seize, name me. I’ll join you. I’ve acquired rather a lot on the listing.
AMY GALLO: As a mother, I hope my daughter could have professors like Neda and profession heart administrators like Aimee, who make invisible expectations far more seen. As a colleague, I do know I can try this for another person’s child by saying, “It’s okay to ask for that,” or, “Let me present you ways I deal with this.”
Somebody got here as much as me after the recording in Austin and instructed me that one of many issues she has executed is to write down a letter to her youthful self with all of the issues she wished she had identified again then. And he or she shares this letter with the younger girls that she mentors in her life.
So, if somebody got here to thoughts when you had been listening, a colleague who works with college students, a good friend navigating the early phases of her profession, or a fellow supervisor who’s mentoring a brand new rent, ship this episode their means.
Girls at Work’s editorial and manufacturing workforce is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Hannah Bates, Rob Eckhardt, and Ian Fox. Robin Moore composed this theme music. I’m Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.
